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How does the BBC stand on this?
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paul
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: How does the BBC stand on this? Reply with quote

When we get things like the recent Hemel Hempstead fire, the media (BBC, ITV, etc.) seem eager to get their hands on people's footage of the incident, whether that be photographs or video imagery. Whilst the news was breaking yesterday, they were asking for viewers to send in their pictures and videos. There was nothing stated about the terms associated with such submissions.

However, if you look at their website at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/2780295.stm#yourpics you'll notice:

Quote:
If you submit an image, you do so in accordance with the BBC's Terms and Conditions.

In contributing to BBC News you agree to grant us a royalty-free, non-exclusive licence to publish and otherwise use the material in any way that we want, and in any media worldwide. This may include the transmission of the material by our overseas partners; these are all reputable foreign news broadcasters who are prohibited from altering the material in any way or making it available to other UK broadcasters or to the print media. (See the Terms and Conditions for the full terms of our rights.)

It's important to note, however, that you still own the copyright to everything you contribute to BBC News and that if your image and/or video is accepted, we will endeavour to publish your name alongside it on the BBC News website. Please note that due to operational reasons this accreditation will probably not be possible with video. The BBC cannot guarantee that all pictures and/or video will be used and we reserve the right to edit your comments.


Now, given that they made no reference to this condition on television, but only on their website, surely they're treading on dodgy ground here by imposing these conditions which people aren't necessarily knowingly "agreeing" to...?

Paul
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I expect the photography industry is cringing as people do for free what they are in business to do.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see the problem myself. Amateurs send in images and they get used.

If people want money they can ring up the Sun. A friend did just that and now has some nice pocket money.
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paul
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that it's not explicity explained (on TV) that the images are going to be used. Someone might send in a picture thinking that the BBC will contact them back should they choose to use it, and that this might be an opportunity for them to earn a little money. Unbeknown to them, the BBC might just go ahead and use it without such a communication. There was no disclosure of their terms on the TV footage I saw.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The BBC's objective isn't to make money or be commercial in any way, and they don't mention any at all for sending in photos. The only reason cash is offered is because the publisher earns far more than that. For example the Sun will have earnt far more than the few hundred they paid for my friend's photos.

The inference is "send in your photos [to be shown]", not "we give you if we show your photos".

If people expect dosh then go to a paper; if they want prestige/coolness send in a photo to the BBC. Simple. No point being hopeful for something which ain't got a chance of happening Smile

I don't think they need to explicitly state the T&Cs on the telly. Everyone knows what the BBC is. And if they don't, it's upto them to check 'em out before sending anything.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I fully agree with you on this. Sure, it would be wise for people to check the terms first, but not everyone is that astute. In fact, I would imagine many people are rather naiive on this issue.

The BBC might not be a commercial entity in itself, but note that they say they will forward your media on to other broadcasters for use, and that you are agreeing to this by sumitting photos/video footage. Those "foreign news broadcasters" may or may not be commercial for all we know. In any case, it really is of no consequence whether the user of your materials is making money from it or not - that's not the point.

As I understand copyright law (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), material of your own making is copyrighted to you by default and may not be used by another party unless you expressly state to the contrary. By sending something in to the BBC or ITV or wherever, you are sharing information but you are not expressly stating that the material is available for them to use freely as they wish.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copyright is automaticlly granted, yes.

Dunno the specifics about the rights of the folk you send it to though.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I understand it, they don't have any rights to it unless you state otherwise. This is the issue I'm trying to raise.

As a slight aside, I'd like to share with you the following story: we run a website which is a directory of hotels in the UK. Our clients send in text and pictures for us to use. Now, we had problems with one particular entry on the site. The photographer of the picture we were using, contacted us to say we didn't have permission to use the image. We explained that the hotel had granted us permission, but he replied by saying that the picture was his and the hotel had only paid for it to be used in a brochure or something, and not in anything else.

In the end, we and other web developers were taken to court on it by this one individual (and had to pay up). Not very fair, I know, but we were thankfully able to recover our expenses directly from the hotel as it turned out.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me it sounds like the BBC want to be able to use the image freely and non-comercially. In sending to the BBC, you're letting them use it. They've said "send us your images" and you're sending them, the implicit reason being to show/use them.

Sure, they could clarify it but I don't think it's that necesasry. But I just have low tolerance levels Very Happy

I'm sure if it was seen being used comercially the photographer would be able to go "hey...er, that's mine" just like your situation.

Glad you got the money back - totally the hotel's fault there.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, let's suppose you had a great photograph or video of the recent fire, and let's suppose I somehow got my hands on that picture or footage. If I sent that to the BBC from an anonymous Hotmail account, and you later saw something on BBC TV that you had planned to sell to The Sun but the newspaper was no longer interested because they wanted exclusive rights... then how would you feel?

I'm just surprised that the BBC might do this, but maybe actually what they do is contact the sender back before using anything that's issued to them. Question

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In your case it'd be your mistake because, sadly, you should never post photos online which you would also like to sell because people can, will and do nick 'em Sad

Perhaps they do contact the person before using them, but I'd guess a thief would rather go to the Sun than the BBC because thieves are cowards looking for a quick buck.

I have one friend who sent some photos in and saw them on the BBC, but I don't remember if he got told by the BBC.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beansprout wrote:
I have one friend who sent some photos in and saw them on the BBC, but I don't remember if he got told by the BBC.


I'd be interested to hear, if you happen to find out.

Thanks

Paul
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so the BBC doesn't pay for your offerings. But where do ITV & Channel 4 stand? They are profit making. Would you be entitled to expect some payment from them for photos et al?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thais wrote:
OK, so the BBC doesn't pay for your offerings. But where do ITV & Channel 4 stand? They are profit making. Would you be entitled to expect some payment from them for photos et al?

I wouldn't send my photos to them unless they offered some cash. So yes.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thais wrote:
OK, so the BBC doesn't pay for your offerings. But where do ITV & Channel 4 stand? They are profit making. Would you be entitled to expect some payment from them for photos et al?


I was tempted to ask the same, Thais, but my thoughts were that it's not actually about whether the end user is a commercial entity or not, but more about whether there is an infringement of copyright. Copyright infringements can be made by both non-profit and commerical enterprises in exactly the same way, so I think the fact that BBC might be funded by taxpayers than by advertisements is actually irrelevant.

Paul
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